Are you like me and believe that a .357mag makes an excelent rifle caliber?


Pistol caliber carbines like the Sig MPX seem to gaining favor again, but they certainly aren’t new.

The aging MP5 has been around since the Mid 60′s, but historically even American cowboys carried rifles chambered in the same caliber as their pistols (and I think their choice made more sense).

There are 4 reasons to choose a pistol caliber carbine, as opposed to a true rifle cartridge…

1) If you already have to keep a supply of a pistol caliber, having to add a rifle cartridge make the logistics/supply chain harder. Police officers have a ready supply of pistol ammo for their officers guns and cowboys had to carry pistol ammo for personal defense anyway… why carry two calibers?

2) The longer barrel increase the velocity of the round increasing its reach and effectiveness.

3) The lower recoil makes fast follow-up shots easier to manage. (Full-auto)

4) The cost per round is less… in many cases.

In this post, I want to look at #2 more closely and discuss why some rounds may be better suited for a carbine than others.

The differences in muzzle energy between pistol and rifle length barrels

The muzzle energies displayed in this chart were calculated from data available on http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/.

In every caliber debate there are 2 positions a shooter can take… light and fast or big and slow.  In a nut shell that is the 9 vs 45 debate do you prefer a 124gr 9mm bullet going 1060ft/sec or a 230gr .45auto bullet going 860ft/sec.

The problem with this debate when talking about pistols is that all pistols suck. We carry them because they are handy, not because they are effective.

The reason they aren’t effective is that the bullet just isn’t moving fast enough!

For the geeks and/or handloaders the formula for calculating kinetic energy is…

Energy = Mass * Velocity^2

Because the velocity is squared, it is far more important in determining the the total energy expended.

Once the energy reaches a certain level it has the ability to create hydrostatic shock or a shock wave that sends enough energy through nearby organs or the brain and causes them to shut down.  There is some debate at what level this becomes effective, because frankly it is dependant on the bullet and the target, but I have never seen anyone suggest that velocities below 1100ft/sec would cause it and many believe that a reliable figure is around 2000ft/sec.

Below those velocities you are relying on crush damage from the wound channel or blood loss to stop the threat or game.

Here are the results of Ballistics by the Inch‘s tests on 8 common pistol calibers and the .223 for comparison.

 Sample Cartridges 4″ V 16″ V
9mm – Federal 124gr. Hydra-Shok  JHP 1061 1243
.357 Sig – Federal Premium 125gr. JHP 1426 1723
40 S&W Federal 180gr. Hydra-Shok JHP 1022 1175
.45 Auto – Federal 230gr. Hydra-Shok JHP 865 994
.38 Spl – Federal 125gr. Hydra-shok JHP 954 1252
.357 Mag – Federal 125gr. JHP 1511 2051
.44 Spl – Cor Bon 200gr. DPX 972 1307
.44 Mag – Federal 240gr. Hydra-Shok JHP 1251 1619
.223 – Remington UMC 55gr. MC 1564 2943

While every cartridge benefits from extending the barrel length, you may notice only the .357sig, .357mag and .44mag reach velocities that meet the mid-point of the hydrostatic shock figures (and even those require at least a 8-10″ barrel).

In fact the rimless cartridges designed for use in semi-autos on gained between 32 and 46% more energy by increasing the barrel length a foot. The revolver cartridges saw gains of a low of 67% to a high for the .357Mag of an 84% increase! ( The .223 was 253% more effective.

I think this validates my belief that .357 is a rifle cartridge and not a pistol cartridge!

One of the topics I’d like to discuss this year is the use of a lever gun for home defense, after all it is the Cowboy Assault Rifle… er maybe that should be the Historical Sporting Rifle… Either way, mine will be in .357!

Obviously there are other issues regarding the use pistol caliber carbine like over penetration, but my house doesn’t have enough drywall to even stop a .223 so it is sort of a moot point.

What to you think of a .357 lever gun as a home defense choice?

I’d really like to hear from cowboy action shooters.  If you shoot cowboy leave  a comment below.  Or if you know a cowboy shooter that might have an opinion share this post with them by e-mail, Facebook or Twitter.

About

Ron is the Founder and President of When the Balloon Goes Up! He competes regularly in IDPA as an ESP/Expert, his focus is on concealed carry, home defense and analyzing equipment to find “Gear that Just Works!”

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  • aczarnowski

    I’m actually looking for a 16″, round barreled, 357 lever action carbine. Stainless would be even better.

    But that market seems, effectively, gutted with Marlin in who-knows-what condition and Winchester gone. Henry is brass and heavy. Rossi is nowhere in my area. And when I do see something it’s more than I want to pay. These things should be in dispensers next to the bubble gum machines.

  • Huntinbull@yahoo.com

    The benefits are even better if you reload. I had a 44 mag revolver and a winchester carbine in the same caliber. By tweaking the load and components I could get a load that was a good compromise for both firearms. Some excess muzzle blast from the revolver (only a little) and better speed and energy for the carbine.

  • http://www.facebook.com/george.zeiter George Zeiter

    I agree with the above essay. I have a hard to find Browning B-92 in .357mag/20 inch barrel/11 +1 cap. Home defense, hunting in brush, simplicity and .38 plinking are the strong points. Many deer and hogs have seen the receiving end of one of these like caliber carbines. With 3 speed loaders for the S&W 686P and 20 rounds on a belt combined with my fully loaded Browning makes it a great trail setup with 60 rounds on hand. Mixing up the bullets from 110 to 180 grains is really handy too. Also, please note, this carbine does not look like my evil AR-15 but is just if not more effective. Many in law enforcement will agree.

  • Aharon

    Great piece. I appreciate learning about how the length of the barrel improves performance for the 38 and 357. Using the same ammo family for a long gun and handgun makes sense if done correctly.

    I think the use of the .357 for use as a home defense gun depends on context. In my situation, I live in a big city in a house with the houses of neighbors (families with children) located very close. I have chosen the Ruger SP101 4″ barrel 357/38 revolver as my ‘go-to’ gun for home defense. The ammo I have selected is Hornady Critical Defense 38 Special +P HP. My back-up revolver is a Ruger LCR chambered in 357 that I keep loaded with 38 Special HP. This year, I intend to learn how to re-load.

    Recently, I bought a used yet in mint condition Winchester 94 ‘Trails End’ model chambered in 357. It’s a classic (built in 2004 in CT) with a 20″ octagon barrel, crescent shaped steel butt plate, and the metal/wood fit and finish is perfect. The tube magazine holds eleven (plus one in the chamber) rounds of 357. I bought it from a used gun store for $600!

  • Steve W

    I have been shooting a Winchester Model 94 AE Trapper style (16″ barrel, 9+1 rounds of .357 Magnum), in a local rifle match that is dominated by AR-15 and AK-47 style rifles and carbines. My observations are anecdotal but perhaps will be helpful.

    I can run the lever action almost as fast as an semi-auto rifle for the first ten shots and get better hits out to 50 yards. I like the Model 94 for as the action allows me to “combat load’ if necessary. I use a Minuteman Gear Forearm Cuff to keep seven rounds on the rifle with the ammo placed in front of the receiver. This allows me to combat load or single load without ever dismounting the rifle, unlike a butt cuff.

    My rifle as a semi-buckhorn style rear sight which allows for fast shooting or precise shots depending on which notch is used. Think of it as a mechanical red-dot that never needs batteries.

    With either handloading or with some of the premier ammunition such as Hornady’s LeverEvolution the effective range of the rifle can be extended past 100 yards. This is also a good time to point out that while the higher pressure loadings in a .357 can approach the ballistics of a .30/30 or a 7.62×39 it will never be the equivilant. It’s a pistol cartridge that becomes a completely different animal in a carbine or rifle.

    Something else to keep in mind. If you load ammo to get the best performance i.e. knock down power it’s going to be more than what most revolvers are capable of handling a steady diet of. I duplicated some of the Skeeter Skelton loads that were pushing a 125 grain jacketed hollowpoint at 2000 fps for my rifle. I ran six through my S&W 686 and swore I’d never do that again. FYI I’m not exactly recoil sensitive. My S&W Model 28 on the other hand had no problems with those loads at all. That’s a really big heavy gun for those that are thinking of a survival or BoB style setup.

    Not all lever action .357′s will cycle .38′s reliably. The Model 94 is a perfect example as it was designed for longer length rifle cartridges. The Model 1892 and it’s clones have no issue with the shorter .38′s but from what I’ve been told by SASS shooters one cannot combat load these rifles due to a difference of the lifters.

    I’ve been tinkering with an idea of a speedloader but it’s still in the “Gee! Wouldn’t it be neat if…” stage at this time.

  • Foo

    Very interesting. The 357Sig does not quite make it, so we are limited to revolver cartridges here. Are there any good options for semi-auto handguns and rifles? Does the 10mm make the grade? I think there was an MP5 in 10mm.

    • ronlarimer

      BBTI to the rescue! The 10mm is like the rest of the semi-auto rounds and doesn’t benefit too much from the additional barrel (1220fps from Hydro-shoks in a 16″ barrel, 1700 with a light weight Corbon round)

  • Mike Reed

    Such arguments are why I recently bought a Rossi model 92 in .357 magnum, a copy of the old Winchester 1892. Velocity from the 16″ barrel approaches 30-30 rifle ammunition velocities, with less recoil and at lower cost. What’s not to like?

    Unfortunately, until recently, pistol caliber carbines have not been very popular. Marlin, Ruger, and others have tried to market such rifles in the recent past with little success. However, a growing number of manufacturers (Beretta, Caracal, Excel Arms, Feather USA, Hi-Point, Just Right Carbines, Kel-Tec, Kriss, Masterpiece Arms, Taurus, Thureon Defense, etc) are producing such guns, so maybe a trend is developing.

  • Diamondback

    All I know is that in order to penetrate Class IV body armor, you need a minimum of a .30 caliber bullet traveling in excess of 2900 fps on impact. Therefore, it you’re target is beyond approx. 50 yards, you’d need something like a souped up .338.

    Therefore, I just intend to take head and inner thigh/groin shots.

    • http://balloongoesup.com Ron Larimer

      Class IV body armor is rated for AP rifle rounds and goes well beyond the probable threat. If you are concerned with body-armor as part of your standard response, why do you chose to go beyond III-A? After all that is what a failure drill is for.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tec-Sg-Beatty/100003397673038 Tec Sg Beatty

    I have a Ruger Blackhawk, Ruger Bisley Vaquero, Winchester 94 Legacy Rilfe, Marlin 1894C Cowboy and a Bond Arms Texas Ranger, all in .45 Colt. In modern firearms, you can get as good or better energy from a .45 Colt as you can from a .44 mag, and at lower pressures.
    With these, I can shoot several different bullet styles, and 3″ .410 in the Ranger. At close range, with good ammo, all would be very effective. Out to 100+ yards, the rifles will take anything, 2 or 4 legged, that I’d need.

  • Davey

    These figures really show only the minimum benefit from a .357 carbine. In addition to all of these facts, I’d check the energy of the hefty 180 grain Buffalo Bore load and other similar 180 grain bullets. Then look at what’s possible with the variety of handloads published for use in rifles only. Bigger improvement still.

  • Mike the Limey

    I’m not sure about a lever gun for home defence due to relatively long time between shots but a semi auto carbine in .357 loaded with 150gr plus hollow points would be fast & effective.

    • ronlarimer
      • Mike the Limey

        There’s a BIG difference in ability between Joe Average looking for a self defence firearm & someone who competes in Cowboy Action Shooting.
        I stand by my comment.

        • http://balloongoesup.com Ron Larimer

          That is a big part of the project this is all leading towards! How much training does it really take to make it viable? I am guessing less than you’d think.

          If there is a knock on it, it is that it is harder to reload than a shotgun.

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